Datsun: will it daily drive?

"AlmostJalop" (almostjalop) 10/25/2014 at 21:42 • Filed to: Datsun

1

47

While perusing the comments on the latest car buying QOTD, I saw the ad for this clean Datsun.

As some of you know, I'm still a student saving for a car. This is totally do-able by this summer.

Problem? I'm a huge BMW guy, and I know nothing about Datsuns. Help me out, what do I need to know?

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

BlurpleToyotaDishwasher > AlmostJalop 10/25/2014 at 21:46

0

That seems really cheap...

sadfasdf > AlmostJalop 10/25/2014 at 21:48

0

Don't get it unless you have a place to work on it. FI will probably be more reliable than carbed, but harder to fix if it breaks.

AlmostJalop > sadfasdf 10/25/2014 at 21:49

0

I'm not looking at this particular example, this is just what's gotten me to spend more time looking into them.

I love the aesthetics of this car though.

sadfasdf > AlmostJalop 10/25/2014 at 21:52

0

Me too. You'll love the sound even more, and the ride will make you want to marry it. If you're tall the ergonomics will make you want to have its baby.

The only downsides are rust and fuel injection issues.

NonDriftingS13 > AlmostJalop 10/25/2014 at 21:58

0

I don't have anything useful to offer, but I just want to say I love Datsun 240Z/260Z/280Zs. I would love to own one.

Steve in Manhattan > AlmostJalop 10/25/2014 at 21:58

0

You will always be able to get parts for a BMW. You will always be able to get parts for a Mercedes. ZE CHERMANS BELIEVE ZAT ZERE CARS VIL GO ON FOREVARRR!

Datsun/Nissan? I'd do some research to see what the OEM and used parts market is like. And I am always suspicious when a car is other than stock. You need an owner and service history for something like this ... and of course the obligatory independent mechanic's evaluation.

And it's a 40 year old car, from before the era when Japanese cars were dead reliable.

I am such a fucking buzzkill ....

AlmostJalop > Steve in Manhattan 10/25/2014 at 22:33

0

Funny you mention ze Germans. When bmw first released the Z8, they promised that they would stockpile 50 years worth of parts to improve sales!

Don't worry, I can always use an extra dose of reasoning/reality when shopping for cars. I'm still spoiled by how young I am, I have no expenses besides the ones I create by going out with friends, so I could hypothetically put all my money towards a car, even though that isn't the best plan.

ViperGuy21 > AlmostJalop 10/25/2014 at 22:35

0

My friend DD's one, but it's a nasty goldish color. He's had quite a few problems with electricity. It either being there, or the unfortunate one, not being there. But otherwise it's solid and runs well

Steve in Manhattan > AlmostJalop 10/25/2014 at 23:02

0

Damn - the Z8 was a huge mistake, built for James Bond with handling that no one should experience. Search out Clarkson's review.

And when I was your age I had a Volvo 142S - had to rebuild 2 carburetors - did one twice b/c I fucked it up the first time. Hold out for what you want.

BoulderZ > AlmostJalop 10/25/2014 at 23:12

2

This is long, but you asked. If you want to see how mine came out, it's in the comments of this post: Datsun Oppoers(?) Unite!!

It's a straight 6, seven main bearing engine (very BMW-ish, you'll feel at home). I bought mine, which had been owned by less-than-careful people for a DD school commuter (e.g. ran it under the back of an Expedition...). With 200,000 on the clock, the mains and rods showed max wear of 0.0001". That is, they were still in FSM spec for the factory original machining tolerance.

The early carbs (SUs) are great, and easy to work on (if you're a carb person). The later ones were fussy, but you can put the early ones on instead. I prefer the EFI. The EFI is exceptionally simple to work on with nothing more than a good multimeter, but after 40 years some parts are likely wearing (like the resistance track in the AFM). Replacing the wiring plugs (easy solder-in Bosch connectors) solves most of the issues.

The S30 Z set records at the time for fastest to 500,000 and 1,000,000 units sold, so the volume of parts is huge, as is the aftermarket support (see zstore.com, zcarsource.com, black dragon, etc., etc.). You could almost build a Z from scratch from those suppliers (it would cost a fortune, but you could do it). Interchange is good, too. Don't like the front brakes? Use the Toyota 4-piston calipers from the 89-93 truck/4Runners and switch to vented rotors. Don't like the rear drums? Use 240SX calipers, a bracket kit, and solid ZX rotors. Or a whole Brembo kit from Arizona Z Car.

Buy Wick Humble's book, "How To Restore Your Datsun Z", and get the PDF of the FSM from carfiche.com or similar other site (it's long since out of print and NLA), or order it on a CD from Motorsport Auto (aka MSA). For references, check zcar.com (I wouldn't post there, just use it for searching), and HybridZ.org. I don't know if ZDriver or ClassicZCar are still around.

Problems you'll see:

-dashes are always cracked, badly. Either get it rebuild (~$1200) or get a cap (~$100 I think? Dunno, I wanted mine rebuilt).

-weatherstripping is likely dried out. New kit is like a couple hundred, if I remember correctly. Old weatherstripping in the hatch and around the taillights lets the funny pressure from the body's aero suck exhaust fumes in for the infamous "stinky interior".

-"the rear end clunk" is the diff mounts/strap. Nissan parts still available from dealers (particularly Courtesy Nissan in TX), or from MSA, et al. Easy replace in an afternoon.

-The early 5 speeds were a little weak. Get the NA ZX 5 speed, a direct bolt on, for a much more durable transmission.

-U joints on the half shafts and/or driveshaft might be toast by now. Easy drop/replace for the half shafts (or get one of the kits to swap to later ZX CV shafts). Replace the driveshaft with a new one. Driveline shops make them for a good deal, or order one from MSA (I got their aluminum one, love it).

- The cooling system needs to be in top shape. Either have the stock radiator rodded and tested, or go with an aftermarket 3-row, 4-row, or aluminum. I went aluminum cross-flow. My temps stay right on spec all day at the track.

- If the seats are stock, they're awful by now. Replace or re-upholster (kits are cheap). I went with Corbeau Targa RS for better bolsters.

- Z's are a cheap way to go fast. Because of this, you really need to watch who you buy from. Some real mouth-breathers get a hold of quite a few of them and just beat them to death. When I shopped for mine, one I went to see had a hole in the side of the block from a thrown rod. I asked the guy, "How did you manage to throw a rod on a famously durable engine?" "The oil light came on and we just kept driving up Vail Pass." "I think we're done here. Good luck."

- Rust. Holy hell are they prone to rust. Look around the hatch, taillight panel, front fenders behind the front wheels, rocker panels, "frame rails" (gussets, it's a unibody), and floor pans. You can get all those parts and weld them in, but it's money and time.

shop-teacher > AlmostJalop 10/25/2014 at 23:41

0

You could always pick one up this summer, and if you end up not liking it, resell it. Easy enough.

I have no experience with these, but they really do look great.

ZiptieMcBumper > AlmostJalop 10/25/2014 at 23:50

1

They require more elbow grease than cash to keep running; translation: you need a garage.

You can always find parts if you need them.

They are monstrously fun.

TAKE A PERSON WHO KNOWS Zs INSIDE AND OUT IF YOU INSIST ON SHOPPING FOR ONE.

bhardoin > AlmostJalop 10/26/2014 at 01:30

2

(TLDR - it's a lot of work, but it's worth it)

I've got one as my only car. College student, low budget, but I mostly rely on bus/bike as transport. That said, the Z gets used almost entirely for fun drives and long trips - regularly goes on drives that are at least an hour above 4k rpm.

I got mine for $6k, restored, and I've done a driveshaft, alternator, brake booster, electronic ignition upgrade, headlight relay upgrade, tires, parking brake adjustment, valve lash adjustment, and replaced a window. Parts for it are pretty damn abundant, and reman/generic parts are pretty cheap. Upgrades and performance parts get super expensive super quick.

The motors have highly regarded reliability. Smooth as butter from 2k to 6.5k, and love high revs. Definitely a motor that likes open and backcountry roads, it hates sitting in traffic, and it hates running cold (especially annoying on a DD given that it takes about 3 miles of driving to actually warm up). Electrics are seriously old school, ex: the headlights are originally hardwired through the dimmer switch without relays - just 7 amps straight through that little switch. You'll probably have some work to do there to keep everything working. You'll also have to get used to tuning carbs - though I've heard good things about the fuel injection. But for everything that can go wrong, there is so so much room in the engine bay that you really don't even need a garage to work on it. I've done most of the work on mine in the street or in parking lots. If you have access to a garage, that's even better. But have somewhere where you'd feel comfortable getting it on jackstands.

As for actual driving: awesome. Super comfy, really easy to drive, best steering feel ever, super gratifying wringing out that straight 6. Mine is loud as all hell with wind noise, rattles, clunks, and beautiful motor noise - and I think that's about as quiet as they get. Don't even bother with a radio, you'll just go deaf before you can hear your music. Hot days can be brutal without AC (see: almost all Zs have cracked dashes). Despite everything that sounds awful up there, it's so worth it because of how freaking fun it is to drive. I've taken mine from central CA to Yosemite, all up and down 1, tons of backroads, and the only time it's left me on a tow truck was when I picked up a foot long metal rod through my tire (my brand new tire... ) . It never gets old, and you'll always enjoy meeting people in parking lots that always have an uncle/cousin/parent/boyfriend/... that had one back in the day.

The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner > AlmostJalop 10/26/2014 at 13:52

2

I'm probably not the right person to weigh in on this, as I've never even seen my 240z in person, but I'd say it's doable. Easily? Probably not, but possible. The SU carbs are super simple and so is the rest of the car. I'm kinda scared by old fuel injection a la 280z, but I now little about that system. Parts are pretty easy to come by online and there is a limited selection in parts stores sometimes. Also a LOT of parts will interchange between the various S30s, some Nissans, and even Toyotas (4x4 brake calipers are a good upgrade).

I bought my 240 for a little under $3k and it needs about $500 worth of tune up parts for me to feel safe driving it from Southern California to Utah. Obviously it isn't the cleanest example, but it's largely rust free and has a healthy engine and a spare donor drivetrain for me to build up sometime. I felt comfortable buying a ratty, but solid car because I know I can do my own work on it, and that because it's so dirty I won't have to worry about preserving the originality too much. I wanted a project car that will become my weekend canyon warrior and it fit the bill nicely.

I should mention that I'm in college full time and work about 30 hours a week on top of that, and I feel comfortable with the expenses. It does help that it's my second car, so, again, I'm probably not the best person to tell you all this, but it's what I've found to be true.

My recommendation is to spend however long it takes to save up for an example in the condition you want it to be in. Look for little rust and no accidents. Everything can be fixed, it's just a matter of can you do it. Are you mechanically competent or at least willing to dig into it and learn? There is a ton of support online through the various datsun forums as they are a very popular classic car. Just double tripple check your financial situation and make sure you can afford it before you jump into it. And if you can't, just give it a while. You might find a cheaper one, a better paying job, or whatever that makes it more doable for you.

AlmostJalop > ZiptieMcBumper 10/26/2014 at 22:36

0

I don't have a garage :(

I definitely have space to work on it, but I know nothing about them. Worst case scenario, get it to my dads friends shop half an hour down the road.

AlmostJalop > Steve in Manhattan 10/26/2014 at 22:41

0

Yeah I've seen the review, I'm still surpised by how well they've held value.

I still don't know what I want haha. If I had the dough, I'd go for an E39 M5 hands down. Don't think being a cashier at wegmans is gonna get me that kind of money though haha.

AlmostJalop > BoulderZ 10/27/2014 at 14:59

1

Thank you! This is very valuable information. I may not be the handiest yet, but I'm hoping that I can continue learning. Hearing about the rust kinda worries me, I live outside of DC so it's not like I won't be getting any snow.

AlmostJalop > bhardoin 10/27/2014 at 15:12

0

Thank you! I'm still in high school, so I actually think this would be perfect because i could always just take the bus if I'm busy fixing something on the Z. I'm not too handy, but I'm more than willing to learn and try my best. I'm fortunate in that I have a job that pays fairly well (I'm only 15, I make above minimum wage and 1.5x my pay on Sundays) and is stable. The store I work at is the most successful in the country and its massively understaffed.

BoulderZ > AlmostJalop 10/27/2014 at 15:13

0

Definitely respect the rust possibilities. Take a fridge magnet with you to any car you see. Anywhere it falls off is some bondo-ed over rust hole that will come back with a vengeance. Good metal repairs aren't hard on that car. I had to do a ton on mine. In your area, the snow/salt combo might make this a bad choice for a year-round car. You could, however, get one that somebody has already properly done the underside with modern coatings, etc. and head off most of the issues. Or DIY, of course, if you'd have some time/space to do it.

I also forgot to mention in the cooling part that it's important because of the llllooonnnggg aluminum head. At this age, if hasn't had a problem, it probably won't, but it's bad heat management that's usually the root cause of head problems on Datsun L-motors.

AlmostJalop > shop-teacher 10/27/2014 at 15:14

0

that's what I may just end up doing, I get my license in March so I could drive it from March-October and sell before the weather starts getting worse.

AlmostJalop > sadfasdf 10/27/2014 at 15:32

0

I don't know much about carbs, but I'm willing to learn.

Rust on the other hand...

AlmostJalop > ViperGuy21 10/27/2014 at 15:33

0

Thanks, how's he like it so far?

AlmostJalop > The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner 10/27/2014 at 15:35

0

thank you for the help. This is all valuable info, I definitely appreciate it!

AlmostJalop > BoulderZ 10/27/2014 at 15:44

0

Yeah someone else mentioned the cooling system, Being a bmw fan I'm all too familiar with that. I'll be sure to be careful of that.

I've been thinking about the rust, let's say I buy the car in spring of '15, I can drive it until winter of '15 and store it for the winter as I either repair the rust or coat the underside to prevent future rust because my sister will still be in school with me and I could just ride with her (she graduates in '16).

About how much is it to repair a spot of rust? How effective are the coatings?

BoulderZ > AlmostJalop 10/27/2014 at 16:14

0

The cost of rust repair depends on where it is, and how big. Body work here (CO) is average to inexpensive, compared to national rates. As an example, when I rebuilt my Toyota truck, there was a rust-through in the floor of the bed. I do all my own mechanical work, but I don't have the space to do body/paint work, so I subbed that out. The shop made a piece of sheet metal to match and fit, and painted in with the rest of the re-paint. I think it added a couple hundred, as I remember. That seems about right, figuring a couple hours of labor for them to cut, fabricate, weld in a piece in a fairly accessible area.

Now, if you have to replace a rocker panel the fender will likely have to come off, maybe the door, there's a lot of drilling out the spot welds, cost of a new piece (likely a couple hundred), all the prep and sanding, then painting/blending. A major single-point rust repair could eat a grand quickly. In those cases, it's often worth tolerating some rust for awhile, and then doing a whole-car rust-removal re-paint. It's cheaper to do it all at once. Some cases, the labor will be cheap, but the part is more. The "frame rails", for instance, have no need of high quality finish blending, etc., but the part is $115 ( http://baddogparts.com/index.php?main… ). In general, local no-cosmetic rust is cheap to fix, whereas rust on visible bodywork will be more, increasing with the complexity of the part (rear panels are a pain, rockers, etc.). Watch for rust that's "bubbling up", as it's the tip of the iceberg and the awful oxide cancer will be 10x worse when you start taking it apart.

If you get one rust-free, or nearly so/fixable, the newer treatments are way more effective than the stuff they had in the 70s, 80s, even early 90s (provided it's done right, of course). There were some actual unibody issues then (like, the hatch surround doesn't drain as well as it should, the cowl drains can clog and hold water, etc.), but most of the rust issue was immature metal treatment, paint, and undercoating technology. All cars had these issues (watch Overhaulin' do some trunks and floor pans on American classics and it's the same problems), but the Z metal was lighter and thinner so shows the rust more quickly and severely.

Your plan of get it, enjoy it over the summer (saving, diagnosing, getting parts, planning, etc.) and then having the body done up during winter is a great idea. It also gives you time to find a shop you like and trust (and that does rust work, old cars, etc. as many do not). That gives you time and space, which is key. Nothing ruins owning an old car as fast as being under time/money pressure. Good luck!

AlmostJalop > BoulderZ 10/27/2014 at 16:37

0

The rust is definitely worrying me now. I may just have to find a car down south/on the west coast to get as clean of a car as I can.

The first thing on my list is definitely preventing rust. I'll be able to save up a nice amount of money over the winter not driving, so I should be able to take care of any other problems the car may have.

Is there a certain year/model I should try to get?

bhardoin > AlmostJalop 10/27/2014 at 18:39

0

That's legitimately perfect then. haha Another thing I forgot to mention that applies- these Zs have an unbelievably good online support community. You'll be able to find almost anything you need online, including the factory service manual. So yeah. Do it.

ViperGuy21 > AlmostJalop 10/27/2014 at 20:08

0

He loves it. He's hoping to paint it this next summer, because it is a TERRIBLE color

BoulderZ > AlmostJalop 10/28/2014 at 00:04

0

Don't let the rust spook you, just know and respect where the car's at. Rust sucks, but it's not Kryptonite. Even a good bit of rust is not insurmountable. West Coast or South/Southwest does help you avoid it. One thing to note, if you get a dry climate car, you won't have rust, but you might have more electrical and weatherstripping issues (those climates dry out 70s polymers mercilessly). Again, it's all treatable easily, just keep your eyes open. You can pay more and get one already rust-addressed (still sub 10k, likely), or get one needing some attention but just be aware.

Your plan on driving/not driving to save up, have time, is excellent. For model years, you need to decide on carbs vs EFI. I'm a tech guy, scientist and software for (embarassingly...) a couple decades, and was a mechanic to pay for grad school. If a multimeter is anathema to you, but adjusting on sound is cool, go carbs. If tweaking an analog mechanical system sounds horrible, but software and logic are no big deal, go EFI. With carbs, you want to go with the latest SU carbs you can get (avoid the flattop smog carbs, they're the Missouri Compromise of fueling). 72 or 73, or someone's retrofit. If EFI is your route (that's my deal, but altitude and aptitude are my biases), then the later the better. I love '78s for that reason. The EFI system is Bosch L-Jetronic (that's why they're easy for parts and work).

Google your local Z club. They are way more friendly and helpful than you could believe. I have some DC area ties (VT '96), and the Z clubs there are good sources. You should be able to get someone to help you with going to see a car. Similarly, if you do a remote purchase, look up regional club boards and get someone local to go with you. Seriously, Z people are awesome. If you find one in CO, let me know. I'm happy to meet and go scout a purchase with a motivated new enthusiast.

If you want to own a special car, one that gets you there with a smile on your face, an S30 Z is a great choice. I don't want to sugar coat it: there is some work you'll have to do or fund. They are old cars, after all. There will be work, grease, cursing, money, likely alcohol, but the rewards are rich and foreign to the car swappers and leasers. I can't drive mine anywhere without stares, stories, and comments. My 2-year-old boy begs to sit in it. My wife loves if we can steal a ride in it. Strangers walk up with smiles at every stop and show. A true heritage car, for way less than median, is what the early Z offers. You can do it!

The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner > AlmostJalop 10/28/2014 at 00:59

0

No problem. I love trying to talk people into buying a Z haha. There's a couple of us on here and it's always fun to see new people get into them!

AlmostJalop > bhardoin 10/29/2014 at 21:40

0

Awesome! Any recommendations on where to start looking for a clean example?

AlmostJalop > The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner 10/29/2014 at 21:44

0

the want has increased over the past few days.. Only problem: I'm not too confident on tuning the carbs.

AlmostJalop > ViperGuy21 10/29/2014 at 21:45

1

haha it must be bad, then again I've never really seen a goldish car that I've liked..

ViperGuy21 > AlmostJalop 10/29/2014 at 21:49

0

I personally hope he fixes the exhaust, because when I'm going to school with the windows down and he gets in front of me it turns into a gassing.

AlmostJalop > BoulderZ 10/29/2014 at 22:11

0

Rust is looking a little less intimidating after I spent some more time researching. Still a top priority.

Honestly, I'm still completely undecided on carbs vs EFI. From what I've been reading so far, carbs seem to be the popular choice with those more focused on performance. I really have little to no mechanical prowess, so I'm not sure which to pick. I've changed filters, wrapped interior trim, and changed bulbs but besides that I have nothing under my belt besides enthusiasm haha.

A quick google search isn't too promising, there's a website for Z cars in my area that seems to be stuck in 2011. I'm just gonna check out zcar.com and look for the regional section. VT grad? I have a lot of friends who are freshmen there now. They love it so far!

I'm definitely gonna keep my search broad, but the closer to me the better. I'm still not sure how my parents feel about this. I brought the notion up to my dad the other day and he didn't really seem against it, but I tell him about a lot of my crazy ideas so I don't even know if he thinks I'm serious about this.

I'll most definitely let you know if I find a car out in your area. I have a friend that moved to Colorado Springs.

I'm excited just thinking about owning a car as special as an S30 Z. As cheesy as it sounds, I want to be able to keep my first car for as long as I can, eventually restoring it to its former glory.

AlmostJalop > ViperGuy21 10/29/2014 at 22:12

1

yeah I heard that's a problem with the Z's, apparently it'll get the interior stinking pretty bad.

bhardoin > AlmostJalop 10/29/2014 at 22:43

0

I just Craigslisted, as I was looking in the $6K range. Cars are occasionally listed on forums online, and they tend to be reasonably priced, but few and far between. I'm also lucky enough to be in California, so I had some reasonable choice.

ViperGuy21 > AlmostJalop 10/29/2014 at 22:44

0

I haven't been in it so I wouldn't know for sure on that, but I would assume it's true

The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner > AlmostJalop 10/29/2014 at 22:45

0

I've been lead to believe that the twin SUs are a very simple carb sytem. There's lots of videos online about them as they were used on many British cars around the same time. I'm kinda scared by the engine bay of the fuel injected Zs but if you're more comfortable with that, then look for a 280z for sure.

AlmostJalop > bhardoin 10/29/2014 at 22:52

0

I'm over in the DC area. Craigslist was my go to, we definitely pay a premium. $7400 for a nice looking example.

AlmostJalop > The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner 10/29/2014 at 23:06

0

yeah I'm still deciding between Carbs and fuel injection. Lots of info about it online, and I'm spending lots of time reading about them haha.

The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner > AlmostJalop 10/29/2014 at 23:10

0

Oh yeah, since I have yet to see my Z in person, I've been reading up on them constantly. I like the carbs because the last project car I worked on was a Volvo 242 with K Jet mechanical injection. I hated that fuel system so much I wanted to burn the car down. Carbs are simple to me.

AlmostJalop > The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner 10/29/2014 at 23:17

0

It must be killing you not being able to see/drive your Z. Hopefully you'll see it soon!

Carbs are looking like the better (more simple/cheap) option for a beginner like myself.

The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner > AlmostJalop 10/29/2014 at 23:47

0

Thanksgiving!! Gonna be a ten day knuckle busting war with a friend and then a couple days of driving back to Utah. My very own Roadkill haha

AlmostJalop > The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner 10/30/2014 at 09:19

0

Sounds like a great time! Be sure to get some pictures up, I'd love to see the Z.

The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner > AlmostJalop 10/30/2014 at 19:55

0

I've had to suffer from the handfull of pictures and a couple texts from my buddy who's trying to fix it up a little. It's pretty ratty and has some sort of cancerous tumor that I've been told is an automatic transmission, but I can't wait to meet it so I can bankrupt myself buying parts for it haha

AlmostJalop > The Magic Rev Matching 4Runner 10/30/2014 at 20:55

0

first part: manual swap!